Anyone Using Thermal Imaging Cameras?
Is anyone using or have tested a worthy thermal imaging security camera with SecuritySpy? The last discussion on this topic is a few years old.
I installed one of the first Axis thermal imaging cameras for a friend in 2014 and was unimpressed. It was way, way out of my price range and with a resolution of just 160x128, it just didn't seem worth the trouble unless I was running a witness protection safe house. However, I have recently seen the prices come way down on Ebay and with the resolution up to 640x480 that is AI pixel refined. Thermal imaging would be a great addition to my army of cameras living in a remote rural area, but I am still on the fence about it all. UGH, but it would indeed help me with a coyote verses livestock issue just for the fact that the predators would be very easily identified in brush verses any of the night vision enhancement technologies available (such as Axis Lightfinder 2.0, which is excellent otherwise).
So, I would be interested in any experiences or other knowledge that anyone can offer. Like all other geeky bells and whistles, it is only a matter of time before you see the CIA (MI6 for you, Ben) level stuff on sale at your local discount store.
Peace,
Dr. Z.
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Update:
I was able to purchase an Axis Q1941-E thermal imaging bullet-style camera at a surprisingly affordable price (considering the ridiculous retail price tag). Yup, it is a discontinued 2019 model, but brand new out of the box. While I have owned a basic handheld FLIR thermal imaging unit for general maintenance diagnosis over the last six years and wouldn’t be without it now, the Axis unit is my first personal security camera application of this type. The 28 degree field of view and 13mm lens limits what can be monitored on a 12 acre ranch. Axis does make a pan/tilt motor accessory for some of their units and software drivers for web browser control, but not this particular model. I could probably hack together something if I really need that functionality. As usual though, if you want something in technology to work seamlessly and actually be useful, it takes money that I can’t justify spending just yet.
Anyhow, the first nights test found a few wildlife guests on my fenced in property. Detection is as far away as 800 feet, yet recognition starts around 400 feet. My primary concern is in predator tracking against my livestock; coyote mostly, but mountain lions also a few times a year. The trick will be to tweak the AI animal motion sensing of SecuritySpy. Axis analytics only track humans and vehicles inside the camera. Unfortunately the 768 x 576 upscaled pixel resolution of the camera and amount of area to cover limits the efficiency of this currently. It will just have to take some trial and error to finally find a central camera mounting spot for the investment to be useful 24/7.
I have tested and/or installed a security camera from just about every manufacturer over the last 25 years personally and professionally. My first exposure to a thermal camera was as a firefighter in the 2000’s and a test program to use such technology right alongside my axe. It made the job much safer and was directly responsible for finding victims so quickly in otherwise blind smoke conditions. Now thermal imaging units are found on every fire engine in the USA. While thermal imaging may only appeal to a sliver of the average consumers now, whether it be on a sunny day or no moon foggy night, I expect that this technology will also become a standard in security camera features as the price comes down. Ben has already shown his willingness to adapt SecuritySpy features as the need arises.
Peace,
Dr. Z.
I am using thermal cameras. They will produce two feeds, one thermal, and one visible. Animals and people produce very defined images on the thermal as shown in the post above and the images below. I wonder if the thermal channel could be used to trigger the SS motion detection, being able to leverage the AI to discern differences between animals, cars and people. This channel could then be set to trigger the visible camera stream recording as well as other actions. Think of it as as Intelligent PIR. Regular PIR does not work well outdoors because it does not know the difference between people and pets. I plan on putting this idea to the test in the near future.
The attached images show Foxes playing in my front yard. One is a juvenile fox. In the video they roll around on the grass and play.
Very interesting to read about both your experiences with these cameras!
Thermal cameras are still rare, and SecuritySpy doesn't have any specific features for them. In particular, I doubt whether the AI object detection will be accurate for thermal cameras. This is because there are no thermal camera images in our training dataset that we use to train our AI algorithms, due to their rarity. Also, thermal images are low resolution and somewhat fuzzy and lacking in detail. For high AI detection accuracy you instead need high-resolution, clear images. So my suggestion would be that standard pixel based motion detection with the AI turned off would be the only reliable configuration, even if this does result in some false-positive detections.
We'll definitely keep an eye out for the future of this technology, but until the image quality improves, and the products dramatically reduce in price, I don't see them being widely adopted.
Ben, what framework are you using for your AI models? Is the Apple CoreML stuff useful in your Mac dev environment, or are you using something else?
Hi @photonclock we use TensorFlow to train our model, on hundreds of thousands of real CCTV images, and then we convert the resulting model into a form that is compatible with CoreML. SecuritySpy then uses CoreML to execute the model locally on the Mac that it is running on, allowing it to take full advantage of any hardware acceleration available (e.g. Neural Engine) for the fastest possible execution times (~2ms per classification on Apple Silicon Macs).
At the moment I'm running a a FLIR II "Marine" that I got lucky enough a few years ago to get at a bargain (relatively...) from a boat builder on the east coast. It's a 320x240 res. the PTZ board stopped working way out of warranty, but the IR cam inside the housing works well, so it's now a "stationary" cam. Also own a Flir E8 for general "techie" stuff of all sorts. FLIR imagers are still very expensive, and the lenses are usually made of Germanium, which can pass the long wave IR. Here's a pic of a "Kitah"....
Ben, have you considered a system that would allow local AI learning, where the end user can "teach" the AI the correct classifications? For example if SecuritySpy mistakes a big dog for a person, the user can teach the AI not to make that mistake again. Even individual human faces could be taught in such a fashion I think, so that, for example, the user could get a notification only if a stranger is detected in the home. (Back to my hope for Security Spy completely replacing old fashioned home alarm systems.) I could imagine that such a system, if fed back into Security Spy's built in AI system, could refine that as well over time with thousands of users collectively fine tuning the system.
I just downloaded the trial of Ben's software and have set up a couple of cameras including a DHI-TPC-SD2241-T which has both thermal and optical. In the software setup when 1 stream was specified it just showed the optical. When I set that to 2 streams, it shows an optical with thermal overlay image.
Would be nice if there was a quick way in the software to switch from optical to thermal/overlay while viewing. Perhaps there is and I haven't discovered it yet.
@AlaskanOffGridder I think you can select stream 1 and then duplicate the camera in SS (it doesn't count against camera limit) and select stream 2 on the second camera. Then you have both available simultaneously.
You are correct, thank you!
Just a clarification for those also using SS and hybrid cameras. It is true that if you have four hybrid cameras, getting both streams from each camera (optical and thermal) does not count against your license for your host copy of Security Spy. HOWEVER, it does count against a client copy (view only) of Security Spy that connects to your main computer to repeat the video feeds. So while the host will show all the streams from four cameras with a four-camera-license, any client software (and I'm assuming also iOS devices) will only show four streams (not four cameras).
Picked up a Dahua DH-TPC-BF5421-T a few months ago to play with. It has turned out to be fantastic for picking up wildlife. We always knew there was activity in the green belt behind us, but only rarely picked up anything on visual. Thermal revealed a lot of night time activity that would otherwise not have been known.
Here is a just a week of animal captures superimposed to put them all in one video.
https://youtu.be/NWFQDG6EgyQ
Elk, deer, male and female bears, bear cubs all using the trails at night.
Even sad video of mama bear after an encounter that left her with a limp and only one cub.
https://youtu.be/X_1gXrTQin4
Bobcats, coyotes also show up on thermal. The thermal has been the most prolific wildlife spotter we've ever had.
The thermal is currently the only camera I'm letting SS train its AI upon.
Also, I suspect that a four camera license on your host copy of SecuritySpy (while it will show the multiple streams from the four cameras) will not send out alerts or motion record for all of them. I suspect it's limited to only four streams for some features.
I've now had several Dahua DH-TPC-BF5421-T cameras for about two months. I'm very impressed with the improvements that they provide for outdoor monitoring. They are vastly less susceptible to false positive events, since vegetation is usually at background temperature. Birds, animals, people stand out like beacons in the frame (false-color versions.) The simultaneous optical cameras built in provide 'normal' views of the scene, and I have them triggered to record via an Action if the thermal camera sees motion.
An example: I can see field mice at 40+ meters in normal "lawn" environment. Birds at 50+ meters in trees. Visual camera picks up nothing, but thermal camera shows bright dots moving. Thermal camera produces 1280x960 frames, but the sensor is only 400x300 (which is still not bad!) The temperature variance is excellent - handprints show up easily, and I can watch drafts slowly move across the yard as they cool or warm the grass.
They're not as cheap as visual cameras, but they're not outrageously expensive. They are where 4k cameras were 5 or 6 years ago. I paid just over $300 each, and I'm sure that price will drop over time. I am starting to question if I will purchase any more stationary outdoor cameras that aren't thermal - the difference in abilities is that significant.
My application for thermal cameras would be to detect small animals in the yard before letting the dogs out to detect them in their own way, often with very unpleasant consequences (most recently three badly skunked greyhounds). One question is how well thermal cameras would see small animals behind plantings, where we can't see them when we visually inspect before loosing the hounds.
Darn!
I thought I was all set for a while... until I read about the field mice at 40+ meters...
I just ordered a TPC-DF1241-B2F2-DW-S8 from eBay.
This looks like great tech - I have problems with remote cameras getting insects in front of the lens, or even rain/branches, causing me to get a flood of email alerts until they leave the frame, or I can get out there with my Webster brush or pruner and clear the view - If the thermal could be used as the trigger for the video recording/ alerts, it might make for a more accurately sensitive alert system -
Tadol: Yes, that's why I'm so enamored of them. I have waaaay too many false positives due to fog and mist, even with IR sensors far away from the cameras, and this (so far) seems to suffer far fewer of those events. We'll see as the weather gets back to unpleasant in the next few months.
It's giving me a brand new perspective of what happens here at night. (Rural property - woods and fields.)
I know the training for animals is probably quite different than for visible light, and the false color spectrum also may play havoc with the learning system (the colors change based on what's in the frame, quickly.) Ben: any ideas how training would work for these?
I plan to set it up on a tripod, along with an eero in a weatherproof box, so I can move it around the property, plug it in to an extension cord, and see whatever areas I want to.
As the OP, a year and a half later, I thought that I might chime back in with a brief update…
I have accumulated six thermal imaging security cameras so far, all purchased off of Ebay for less than $1000 USD. Each unit had zero to about 300 days in use on them and I never bought from someone unless they knew how to access the data logs first (which I also confirmed myself). All of the cameras are Axis models (Q1941-E,Q1942-E, Q1951-E) with lenses from 7mm up to 35mm. The attached photos will give you a good idea between close and distanced mounting, as well as 384x288 resolution scaled up to 768x576 VGA verses 640x480 scaled up to 800x600 SVGA (and yes, SVGA really makes a big difference). I didn’t label the photos because it is pretty easy to tell the quality difference. Teledyne Flir is the gold standard for professional thermal imaging, but even their top of the line $5000 plus cameras still only reach 640×512 resolution with similar upscaling. Most consumer level cameras just perform at about 256 x 192. You get what you pay for in life and thermal imaging cameras are no different.
While all of my Axis cameras could operate independently on a network with a variety of features (motion sensing, custom area triggering, etc.), SecuritySpy already does a phenomenal job covering all that and so much more. The only real feature that I rely on that only comes from the cameras themselves is what Axis refers to as the palette. This is the ability to change the color(s) and/or invert dark/light to indicate hotter surfaces. Each choice has its strengths for the particular application or more likely, personal taste.
Anyhow, these thermal cameras help me keep an eye on my high desert Arizona ranch and especially animal predators. I capture allot of coyote and bobcats amongst the regular rats, rabbits, porcupines, javelina, birds/owls, and deer roaming through. Even though I live out in the country, the cameras are also well adapt at tracking humans. Thankfully security has never been an issue where I live, but occasionally it helps to spot people or vehicles on a no moon night up to just over 600 feet away where my infrared cameras can’t define anything. Of course I really like the idea of various hybrid models available that capture thermal and infrared imagery together, but I have yet to try one out. Regardless, thermal imaging is now an integrated part of my CCTV army and I look forward to the technology advances, not to mention the ridiculous prices finally coming down.
Peace,
Dr. Z.